The Complete Guide to Criminal Defense in Missouri. Attorneys Christopher Combs, Matthew Brown, and Martell Turner from Combs Waterkotte discuss everything you need to know about Missouri criminal charges, including DWI, drug charges, sex crimes, conspiracy, violent crimes, gun charges, Medicaid and Medicare fraud, and more.
Combs Waterkotte is a leading criminal defense law firm serving Missouri and Illinois. Our Missouri defense attorneys will fight for your freedom and rights. If you are facing charges in St. Louis, Kansas City, or anywhere across Missouri, we can help. Call us at (312) 500-HELP 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Interview Transcript
Scott Michael Dunn: Welcome back to Hexxen Studios. We have with us today Combs Waterkotte a criminal defense firm serving both Missouri and Illinois. Today we’re going to talk to Martell Turner, Matt Brown, and Chris Combs, the managing partner of Combs Waterkotte. Welcome.
Martell Turner: Thank you.
Dunn: I understand, Martell, that you’re relatively new to the family.
Turner: I am, yes.
Dunn: Which is exciting.
Turner: Yes, it is.
Dunn: Excellent. Excellent. Well, you guys are a busy, busy firm. We see a lot in the papers. We see a lot in the news. So, lots of exciting things going on for you. Today, we’re going to talk about criminal defense lawyer basics in Missouri. Do I need a criminal defense lawyer in Missouri, Martell?
Turner: Absolutely. I would say anytime that you’re being investigated or if there’s an arrest or you’re being accused of a crime, I think that it’s imperative that you consult with an attorney. And that’s for the purposes of protecting your constitutional rights.
Dunn: And when should I hire a criminal defense lawyer in Missouri?
Turner: I would say anytime that you would come into contact with the police, if there’s an arrest, you want to immediately hire and consult with a criminal defense attorney. Just so that you know what you should or should not be saying because any and everything that you do say could potentially be used against you as evidence to bring about those charges.
Dunn: And what does a criminal defense attorney do in Missouri?
Matthew Brown: A criminal defense attorney has a number of hats. Number one, obviously, first and foremost, we’re interested in protecting your constitutional rights. Number two, we conduct our own investigations because while we get police reports and things from prosecutors and police officers, we don’t just necessarily rely on what they have put down. So, we conduct our own investigations and ensure that your constitutional rights are protected throughout the entire process.
Dunn: But how can a criminal defense lawyer help me in Missouri?
Brown: Well, a number of ways. Again, protecting your constitutional rights first and foremost, making sure that all investigations were done properly and within the scope of the law. And it’s also important to note, too, we’re not just protecting your constitutional rights. There could be negative factors including your employment whenever you’re charged with a crime. It could have negative implications on finding housing whenever you’re charged or convicted of a crime. So, it’s not just about your constitutional rights. It’s things that affect your everyday life that most people don’t even think about.
Dunn: What’s the difference between a public defender and a private attorney?
Christopher Combs: Public defenders are not necessarily bad lawyers, but that is a public defender who will be assigned to you if you cannot afford a private attorney. Private attorney, of course, is our firm Combs Waterkotte. We’re not the only private firm in town, but obviously, if you’re going through a criminal investigation or being charged, you would like to have your choice of a lawyer. So, I would always recommend if possible going with a private defense firm. You can do your own research. You can talk to the lawyer and pick who you think is the best fit for you. As opposed to a public defender, you’re just going to get assigned that lawyer. And also, there’s a lot of turnover. And because public defenders are so busy, a lot of times they will only speak with the client. So, if you want family kept in the loop, things of that nature, you really need a private defense team.
Dunn: And should I hire a lawyer before talking to the police?
Combs: 100%. The first thing you want to do is put a lawyer between yourself and law enforcement. You can’t get in trouble for anything that your lawyer is saying. However, law enforcement, they’re not there to help you. I’m not saying cops are bad, but if you’re part of a criminal investigation, they’re trying to build a case, right? So, they ask questions that don’t have any good answers. They’re well trained to elicit information from you that could be incriminating. So, you always want to put a lawyer between yourself and law enforcement.
Dunn: Can a lawyer stop detectives from questioning me?
Combs: Yes. I’ve had that issue twice this week where someone was engaged in some type of activity and then they get a call from a detective or law enforcement. And that is the best time to reach out to an attorney. Two very smart clients called me the second they got a voicemail from law enforcement. Then what we do after being retained is we reach out to law enforcement on the client’s behalf, try to gather as much information as possible and then go from there. But yes, once we are involved, then law enforcement should not be contacting our client whatsoever. All communication should go through their attorney, which would be us.
Dunn: What should I look for in a Missouri criminal defense attorney if I’m shopping for one?
Brown: I think that’s kind of need specific for each individual person, but I think first and foremost, client communication and communication with your attorney is probably the number one thing that somebody should look for. It doesn’t make sense to hire an attorney that you can never get a hold of, that you can never meet with, that you can never discuss your case with. That’s why at Combs Waterkotte, all of our clients have our own personal cell phone numbers. We get texts 24 hours a day, emails 24 hours a day, phone calls 24 hours a day. But first and foremost, I think having direct communication with your specific attorney that’s handling your case is probably most important. And that’s what we strive to do here at Combs Waterkotte. Most places, you might get a paralegal, you might get a secretary. And getting direct contact or communication with your attorney in some places is next to impossible.
Dunn: Well, how do I choose the best criminal defense attorney in Missouri?
Brown: Well, do your research first and foremost. Look at Google reviews, look at client satisfaction. See what kind of cases those attorneys are handling. If you’re charged with a child sex crime, you don’t want to go hire the local guy that’s handling DWIs and landlord tenant law. Criminal defense can be very specific and very unique. So, you want to make sure first and foremost, aside from communication, you want to be hiring somebody that actually has specific knowledge in the crime that you’re charged with.
Combs: And I would just say to piggyback on that, yes, you want to look at case results and the type of cases that the attorney or the firm has handled. But I also think that it’s paramount that you look for a firm that specializes or only does criminal defense. As Matt said, particularly in rural towns, population doesn’t support just, ‘Hey, I’m only going to do criminal defense work’ in some of these small towns. So, they have to be kind of jack of all trades, master of none. Whereas, if you look at Combs Waterkotte, we handle homicides down to traffic tickets and everything under the criminal defense umbrella. That’s all we do. So, day in and day out. And it’s good to have a team behind you. You know, there’s a lot of solo practitioners and things like that. I was a solo practitioner for many years. Nothing wrong with that, but now it’s Combs Waterkotte. You come in, we’ve got former law enforcement in the office. Matt’s a former prosecutor. So, you know, looking at the pedigree information of the attorneys and the team that you’re hiring is pretty important.
Dunn: What kind of questions should I ask a criminal defense attorney during consultation in Missouri?
Turner: I would say that it’s important that you figure out what their track record is, what type of cases that they have handled, their success rate. Also, how can I get a hold of you? What can I expect? What can I expect in the outcome? Are there different outcomes that could come about with this case that I’m handling? I believe that that probably would be the top thing to think about. What are the outcomes of my case? What can I expect from you? What can you do for me? And again, who are you? Have you had any success? What’s your track record with these cases?
Dunn: It’s like a resume.
Turner: Correct. That’s right.
Dunn: What is a free consultation? And let’s say allegedly I’m charged with a crime, what should I bring?
Turner: Yes. So what you would want to do is you would want to bring us the facts and from there we would pretty much sort through the facts and we would direct you in the proper direction of which you should go. We would tell you, ‘Hey, we do believe that you could be charged with the crime’ or ‘if you are being charged with the crime, this is the direction in which you should go about handling that crime.’
Dunn: Let’s say I’m not happy with my attorney. Can I change lawyers in the middle of a criminal case?
Combs: You can. And often times we see that. We’ve already discussed communication, quite a bit. That is the number one thing, and the number one complaint of clients is I cannot get a hold of my lawyer. “I don’t know what’s going on with my case.” And obviously, Combs Waterkotte, we are the polar opposite of that. We are available 24/7, 365. But yes, you can change lawyers at any point in time and oftentimes like I was kind of leading to is we get calls, “I can’t get a hold of my lawyer. I don’t know what’s going on with my case. I’m very frustrated.” I would just say that if you’re going to change lawyers, you want to do it sooner rather than later. You don’t want a lawyer who’s not doing a good job to start litigating your case and potentially making mistakes. You want to make that decision to change lawyers as soon as possible, as soon as your gut’s telling you this isn’t a good fit. But yes, it is always the client’s decision who is going to represent them. And it is always ultimately their choice of who they want to represent them.
Dunn: Let’s talk about Missouri arrests, police contact, investigations. What should I do if the Missouri police try to question me?
Brown: I think immediately you need to let the officer know that you’re invoking your right to an attorney and you want to speak to an attorney. One thing that people need to remember, and Chris alluded to this a little bit earlier, is that cops are not your friend. They’re not there to help you. And that doesn’t mean cops are bad, but what that means is they have a job to do and they’re trained to elicit information from you and they’re going to take that information and mold it and spin it how they see fit. So it’s very important that before you start providing even what you may feel like is meaningful or helpful information for yourself or for your case, before you start providing that information, you need to sit down with an attorney and talk with an attorney and then ultimately have an attorney present with you during that investigation phase or that interrogation phase because you may think that you’re doing yourself a favor by saying, “Hey, I’m just going to be honest with this guy and tell him what happened and then I should be okay.” That’s very seldom the case. So, you want to make sure you have somebody present that can help you and help protect your rights.
Dunn: But, do I have to talk to the police in Missouri?
Turner: You don’t ever have to talk to the police in Missouri. You have to provide them your name and information. And then beyond that, you’re not obligated to talk to any kind of law enforcement at all.
Combs: And you shouldn’t. You absolutely should not. Again, they’re there to build a case. So, you have to put an attorney between yourself and law enforcement immediately. Like Matt said, invoke your fifth amendment right to remain silent and have an attorney present for any questioning. Be polite, but I would not say anything other than your basic pedigree information and get a lawyer involved.
Dunn: Then what should I say or not say to the police if I’m arrested?
Combs: Nothing. I hate to talk over you, but it’s that critical. I mean, you just can’t…don’t say anything. You get people who are like, “I didn’t do anything wrong. I’m just going to explain what happened here. I did nothing wrong.” And it may be the case that you didn’t do anything wrong. But I can tell you that over the course of decades of experience at Combs Waterkotte, we get police reports and things like that where we provide it to the client and the client’s like, “I didn’t say that or I didn’t say it.” And it’s like, you just should say nothing because if you say anything, it will get twisted and you’ll find it in a police report. I can’t tell you how many client calls I’ve had going over discovery. “I didn’t say that.” Police reports aren’t gospel, but at the same time, you will see your words twisted.
Dunn: Can the police lie during questioning?
Combs: Yes. And they often do and it blows people’s minds that don’t have experience with the criminal justice system. A lot of people are mind-blown that police are legally allowed to lie. They do it all the time. I just had an instance this week where they were asking if my client would submit to a DNA sample. You would think that means they have something to compare it to. But in this case it ended up being a bluff. So it happens.
Dunn: Now what happens after an arrest in Missouri? What’s the process?
Turner: Well, after an arrest, you get booked in jail. So, that’s when they’re going to get your fingerprints. They’ll take photographs. And then the next step, you’ll be detained, of course, and then you will be awaiting to go in front of the judge for pretty much an informal reading of the charges that are against you.
Combs: And then the next step is, if we’re involved, get in front of a judge, get your bond reduced, get you out so that you can fight your case from the streets and you’re not sitting behind bars.
Turner: Some of the times there isn’t a bond, and so you can be released on your own recognizance, and we would say that after that, you should immediately consult an attorney to provide next steps.
Dunn: But how long can the police hold me before charging me in Missouri?
Combs: In the state of Missouri, they can hold you for up to 24 hours without charging. In the state of Illinois, it’s 48. In Missouri, within that 24 hours, they can do a multitude of things. They can attempt to question you or interrogate you. They can take whatever evidence they have at that time, present it to the prosecutor’s office, and have you charged while in custody with a warrant and a bond amount. So then you’re detained pending a bond reduction hearing. Or you can just sit the 24 hours and they may release you pending application of warrant pending them walking over their arrest packet, their investigation of the prosecutor’s office who then is going to review it for formal charges.
Dunn: What’s probable cause for arrest?
Brown: Probable cause for an arrest just means that there is enough information to show that a crime was committed and it was committed by you. It’s a very low standard. If you look at it in terms of numbers, it’s like 51% that this happened compared to 49% it didn’t. So it’s just a legal word essentially to determine whether or not there’s enough information, enough evidence to show a crime was committed and that you specifically committed that crime.
Combs: And the term that’s often used with probable cause is more likely than not. So the 51% that Matt was referring to, is it more likely than not that this occurred? And again, a very low bar that they have to meet.
Dunn: Can the police search my car during a traffic stop?
Brown: Well, it depends. If there’s probable cause to do so, they can. If you’ve consented to a search, which I would highly recommend never doing, the number of people that consent to a search of their vehicle is astronomical. But yeah, under certain situations, under certain circumstances, if they have probable cause to do so, number two, if you’ve consented to a search, or number three, they go and get a search warrant for it. Absolutely they can.
Dunn: Can the police search my phone without a warrant?
Turner: Usually no. The Supreme Court has ruled that being able to search one’s phone and the data that they would have to get a search warrant, which means that they would have to go before the judge and they would have to have probable cause for searching the phone and the judge would have to sign off on it in order for them to obtain the phone and search it.
Dunn: That would be unless the alleged criminal offers the phone.
Turner: That is correct. If it’s consent. But at the same time, they can’t just go through the phone. They can obtain the phone, but they can’t just go through the phone because that would then be deemed illegal. They would still have to get that search warrant and have the probable cause to get the data to search the phone.
Dunn: What is a search warrant and when is it required?
Turner: So a search warrant essentially is an order by the court which local law enforcement they will bring the information or the probable cause, again we’re talking about probable cause so very low standard, that there is a crime that is being committed and if the judge believes that they do have probable cause or they’ve met that standard they will sign off on the search warrant. It is very imperative that whenever you are obtaining a search warrant, it’s about the particularity. And so you have to convey to the judge essentially what it is that you’re looking for and why you would be looking for it. You just don’t have free reign to search one’s dwelling or one’s phone. And so what would be the probable cause of what it is that you were looking for as to why the judge would be signing off on the warrant?
Dunn: What happens if the police violate my rights during an arrest in Missouri?
Combs: Well, that happens a lot. Whether you believe it or not. And that is why we’ve added a former law enforcement officer to our team. We have a former cop in our office and he reviews a lot of the police reports looking for constitutional violations and things of that nature. It is our job to pinpoint those, find those, and then use those to suppress evidence, things of that nature, to get the charges dismissed.
Dunn: Can evidence be thrown out if police act illegally?
Combs: Yes. And it often is. I mean, if you get pulled over for speeding, your car should not automatically be searched. Again, unless there’s some type of probable cause, if there’s something illegal like drug paraphernalia laying in plain sight, they can search. If they say they smell this, etc… but case law is clear from the Missouri Supreme Court. Nervousness is not enough to search a car.
Brown: I think just to piggyback on that though, one one important thing to note is just because an officer may violate your rights doesn’t mean that something is automatically going to happen. And that’s why it’s important that again you hire an attorney, you hire a firm that has experience in handling these types of cases. Because an officer can violate your constitutional rights all day, but if you don’t have an attorney that’s going to act on that and file the proper motions and go argue those motions, then that information just sits there to the detriment of the client. So again, at Combs Waterkotte, like Chris was saying, we have a former police officer that’s head of our private investigation division. Now, I’m a former prosecutor. All our attorneys are very well trained in spotting these types of issues and then filing the proper motions to either get that evidence suppressed or ultimately get the case dismissed.
Dunn: Let’s talk about the Missouri criminal court process. Where are criminal cases handled in Missouri?
Brown: Well, in Missouri, criminal cases are handled in the circuit division throughout the state. For example, in St. Louis County courthouses are in Clayton. There are what we call municipal courts also. Those are more local city type courts. Typically those kinds of cases are handled at a local city hall. Although there are a lot of municipalities that are doing away with that and now the circuit courts are taking over. But there’s courthouses located throughout the counties around the state of Missouri that will handle those municipal cases, misdemeanor, and then felony level cases.
Dunn: And what happens at my first court appearance?
Combs: So, your first court appearance, and Martell had touched on this, is typically an informal reading of your charges. The judge will typically read what you’re charged with, ask you if you understand the charges, and then let you know what your bond amount is. It’s pretty quick. There’s not much to it. It’s literally just that, reading the charges. “Do you understand them? Your bond’s been set at X amount.” That’s it.
Dunn: What happens at an arraignment in Missouri?
Turner: So, an arraignment is the formal reading of the charges and so from that point you are brought before the court and the judge is reading the statutory code based on the charge that is being applied against you.
Dunn: What’s a preliminary hearing in Missouri?
Turner: Preliminary hearing, it’s more so at the beginning and it again here we go dealing with probable cause. And it’s also known as an evidentiary hearing. So, pretty much the prosecution is bringing forth the evidence and they’re presenting it to the court and if there’s probable cause for those charges to be pinned against you, then from that point, that is when it is turned over.
Dunn: What’s a grand jury indictment in Missouri?
Brown: Grand jury indictment is just another proceeding that some courts utilize, some don’t. But it’s a form of probable cause hearing. The difference being in a probable cause hearing that information is presented to the judge for a judge to make that determination. Defense council and your client are present. You can contest that information. You can put on your own evidence if you like, and you have the opportunity to cross-examine witnesses in a grand jury proceeding. Those are what we call secret proceedings, meaning the prosecutor presents the evidence to a panel of a grand jury, usually about 12 citizens. We don’t have the opportunity to hear or see what they’re saying. We don’t have the opportunity to question the evidence. At the end of that presentation, then 12 of those grand jurors vote on whether or not there’s probable cause and for the case to continue. The indictment is the grand jury then signing off on the case saying yes, we believe there’s enough probable cause to proceed. That indictment is presented to the judge and then the case formally moves on at that point.
Dunn: So a private attorney cannot defend probable cause.
Brown: No. There’s an old saying in our criminal defense world that you can indict a ham sandwich at a grand jury because you can essentially present whatever information you want, how you want it, and there’s nobody there to question it or be able to examine that type of evidence. So, if you have a case, if a prosecutor has a case that maybe is not necessarily a very good case or they don’t have cooperating witnesses, we see this a lot on domestic violence types cases where maybe witnesses aren’t wanting to work with the prosecution. Well, then a lot of times they just go and present that case to the grand jury. That way they don’t have to present the victim’s testimony. So, it can be a very frustrating process from a criminal defense end because we don’t have the opportunity to be there and question what’s going on, question the evidence.
Dunn: Wow.
Combs: I think it’s important to note that whether in felony cases, whether there’s a preliminary hearing where we’re able to challenge the evidence or the state runs it through a grand jury, defense attorneys have no control over that. So, that is a decision that is made by the prosecutor’s office and as Matt touched on, you see it a lot when it’s a weaker case or they don’t have cooperating alleged victims or witnesses. Domestic assault is a big one. We see husband and wife have an issue. Police get called, but then they want nothing to do with the criminal justice system. Well, so the wife or the girlfriend is not going to participate. Well, then they’re not going to have a preliminary hearing. They’re just going to take that to a grand jury, get an indictment, bypass preliminary hearing, then you’re in circuit court.
Dunn: Wow. What’s discovery in a criminal case?
Turner: So, discovery is essentially the transferring of the information from the prosecution and the defense attorneys. and it’s dealing with any contact information, people, witnesses, it could be physical objects, whatever that is going to essentially be used in bringing about those charges or convicting the person of the crime. And so usually with the evidentiary standard when we speak about the discovery you don’t just go and get any and all information that you want. It has to be pertinent to the charges that are being, or whatever the client is being accused of. And so if it’s going to assist with bringing about a conviction then that is information that needs to be exchanged between both parties.
Combs: And two important things to note about discovery. One, and this is specific to Combs Waterkotte, is that when all the discovery is all the evidence that the state plans to use to prosecute you. So when they turn that over to us at Combs Waterkotte, it’s not just one lawyer reviewing the police report or body cam or dash cam or whatever it may be. You’ve got a law clerk looking at things. You’ve got a senior litigation paralegal, you’ve got former law enforcement, you’ve got an associate attorney, and then a partner. So you’re getting four or five sets of eyes on your discovery at Combs Waterkotte. Second, we conduct our own investigation, which is something Matt touched on. So, when we’re handed over everything the state plans to use to prosecute our client, we don’t just take that. We’re conducting our own investigation because we can’t just take that as fact. Of course, we have to conduct our own investigation, which we do in every case.
Dunn: What happens at a pre-trial conference?
Brown: Pre-trial conference is usually just another legal term that’s used where you essentially update the judge on the status of your case. Where are you at in the discovery process? Where are you with plea negotiations? Is the matter set for trial? Do we need to set it for trial? Is this something that needs to be on track for trial? So it’s just essentially a way of updating the judge. In most criminal cases and most judges and most counties throughout the state, you’re probably going to be in court at least once every 30 to 45 days. Sometimes it might be a little bit longer. But on average, you’re going to be going to court about once a month, once every 45 days on your case. And that is for these pre-trial conferences again where the judge wants to keep track of your case and make sure it’s moving along. If there’s something the judge can do to help move things along, they’ll do that. But essentially, it just means we’re just kind of updating the judge, updating the court on where we’re at in the process.
Dunn: How long does a criminal case take in Missouri?
Brown: It varies. First and foremost, it’s going to vary on the level of charge you’re facing. If you’re facing a misdemeanor, we’d like and we hope that we can get a misdemeanor case resolved for you in maybe 3 to 6 months, 9 months. And again, that also depends on what we’re looking at. Most felony cases on average, we like to tell our clients, it’s probably going to be at least a year. And that also depends on what we’re tracking towards. If it’s a major felony case, a felony type level case, it’s likely out of the gates, we know that we’re tracking that towards trial. So, a trial level felony case, it could be 2 years, it could be 18 months, it could be 3 years. But it’s also important to note that a lot of those time frames also are out of our hands as well because, as attorneys, we can do what we need to get done, but at the end of the day, we do not control a judge’s calendar and we don’t control the judge’s docket. So, in a lot of cases that we get out of small rural municipalities, we may be getting trial dates that are two years down the road and there’s nothing that we can do about it. But I think on average, a misdemeanor probably 6 months, a felony probably a year, but again, it also depends on the severity of the case, depends on if witnesses are cooperating, and it depends on how quickly we’re getting what we need back from the prosecution.
Combs: And one thing I would say is that if it’s any type of victim case and our client is not in custody, we’re likely going to try to extend that case as long as possible. Obviously we don’t want it hanging over our client’s head for eternity, but at the same time, I always explain to clients, you certainly don’t want to rush the case at the expense of the outcome. But furthermore, in any type of victim case, as time goes on, it can only stay the same or get better. You have alleged victims move, lose interest in the case. You have law enforcement officers that may join the military (or) move. So, cases get better with time often. Things can kind of fall apart for the state. So, if you’re able to drag a felony case out, you ought to as long as your client is not in custody.
Dunn: If you’re in a criminal case, do you get a new attorney and in cases where they’re trying to obviously articulate the charges against you?
Combs: So yeah, that’s a very common frustration with the public defenders office that we hear a lot is that they’ve had five different lawyers on their case and that is due to turnover, the volume of cases they have, and things of that nature. But yes, it is not uncommon if you’re dealing with the public defenders office to have three, four lawyers that are on your case. And we see it if someone calls us with a public defender and they want private counsel, we can see the substitution of counsel and motions on case and it’s like, “Wow, you’ve had four different lawyers on your case.” And each lawyer starting fresh. So, right, it’s very frustrating for people. That’s often why if you have the means, you always want to go with a private defense firm.
Dunn: Makes sense. Now, will my case go to trial? How do I know?
Turner: Well, it’s depending on the severity of the case. Typically, it’s depending on what evidence that the prosecution has that is against you. And that is the telltale of is my case going to trial? I would say during that entire process of the pre-trial we’re constantly negotiating and in discussion with the state trying to receive the most favorable outcome. And so that can look like the reduction of charges based on the evidence that the state has or it could be the amendment of charges based on the evidence that the state has. Or there could just be an agreement. So, it really depends on do they have enough evidence, is it concrete to where, okay, if we know that we have this evidence, maybe we should probably get a deal here and settle the case. If we want to fight it and we feel that we have a shot, then more than likely it’s going to go to trial.
Combs: And what I would say just to expound on that is that first and foremost it is always the client’s decision whether or not they want to accept a plea offer. That’s right. Or go to trial. That is something that Combs Waterkotte prides itself on is we try cases. Matt was in trial last week. Now there was a mistrial over an incident. So he’s got to go back in two weeks. But, we’ve probably tried five, six cases in 2026. So there’s a lot of law firms out there, solo lawyers, that one will, they may be cheaper, but they’re going to take the first offer from the state, the first plea offer, turn around, take it to their client, and say, “If you don’t like it, let’s go to trial.” We’re constantly trying to improve upon that plea deal, bring you the best and final offer so that we can then educate you on should you take this or do we think you should go to trial. But ultimately, it is the client’s decision and the client’s decision alone if they want to go to a full-blown jury trial.
Turner: I mean, and with the stakes being so high, that is definitely why it’s very important that you are communicating with the client and that the client knows all of the evidence, the things that are pertinent to the case that could potentially send them to prison or possibly keep them home. I just do believe that when the stakes are high and trial is inevitable, that you’re doing things orderly and that that communication stays intact with your client because things could essentially fall apart. Dealing with witnesses, them not knowing that a certain witness said X, Y, and Z. And so again, communication going from pre-trial leading up to the trial. You always want to make sure that that report just remains between you and your clients and that you are conveying every and all things because it could essentially take a left turn. Or it could allow for us to win the case.
Dunn: Can a criminal case be dismissed in Missouri?
Brown: Yes, absolutely. And it happens often. And it can be dismissed for a number of reasons. It can be dismissed by the prosecutor if evidence goes bad, if witnesses go bad. It can be dismissed at a preliminary hearing if a judge finds that there’s not probable cause for the case to continue. It can be dismissed based upon things that your defense attorney has done. Filings and motions to suppress, filings for motions to dismiss. So, it absolutely can. A criminal case can be dismissed at really any point throughout the process.
Combs: You know, with Combs Waterkotte not having any fear in trying cases with former prosecutors and lifelong defense lawyers and things like that, when you set a case for trial and prosecutors know this, “Hey, look, this lawyer tries cases.” They’re not afraid to try cases because there’s a lot of criminal defense lawyers that don’t try cases, believe it or not. They’ll either refer it out when it comes to trial time or they’ll do everything they can to avoid a case going to trial. But you set a case for trial, you’re holding the state’s feet to the fire a little bit, saying, “Look, you know, we will try this case.”
Dunn: How important is it that you take these cases to trial?
Combs: Well, not as many cases go to trial as they used to, and I think there’s a number of reasons for that. Financially, it’s expensive to go to trial. Two, risk tolerance of clients. And if you do a good job, working up the file and you’re looking at serious charges and we’ve got the “for sure” plea deal for you and you know exactly what you’re getting. And again, we really work these cases up. We don’t just take the first offer. Clients are apt to take the for sure thing as opposed to roll the dice with 12 jurors. Another thing you have to remember is if you start out with, let’s just say, a class B felony, we get it amended down to a misdemeanor or a much lower felony with no prison time or what have you. When you go to trial, you’re going to trial on that B felony. You’re not going to trial on the reduction in charges that was negotiated in the plea deal. So again, it’s very important.
Brown: And I think also what’s even more important is not necessarily how important is it that we take a case to trial, what’s more important is do we have the ability to take that case to trial?
Combs: Right.
Brown: And Chris alluded to it earlier again is that prosecutors throughout the state know that I’m going to try cases and I have the ability to do that and that our entire firm has the ability to do that. And that plays a lot into negotiations. That plays a lot into how things progress.
Dunn: –change the way, how they approach the case.
Brown: 100%. Because unfortunately there are attorneys that take your case that can get you to a certain level, but then after that, they’re not going to take you where you need to go. And if somebody knows that, if a prosecutor knows that and says, “Well, this guy, I have to be really serious in my negotiations because I know if I don’t, then we’ll just tee it up and we’ll go to trial. Whereas with this guy over here, I don’t really have a whole lot to worry about because I know I can throw this out as my last offer and he’s going to take it because we’re not going to go to trial.” So, it’s the ability to go to trial is what’s most important and that’s something we pride ourselves on.
Combs: And worse, you find lawyers that will lean on their clients to take deals because they don’t want to try cases. At Combs Waterkotte, we make it very apparent, we will try your case. It is ultimately your decision, but it is our job to bring you the best and final offer and then educate you and give you our professional opinion on whether or not you should proceed to trial or take this plea deal. But again, it’s ultimately always the client’s choice.
Dunn: It seems like a pretty considerable advantage.
Combs: It is.
Dunn: By retaining Combs Waterkotte, knowing that in advance that if this case takes it all the way to the trial that you’re not going to walk away.
Combs: Well, yes. As Matt said, when you have a reputation for trying cases right out of the gate, the state’s going to start looking at the case differently because they know, look, this firm is not afraid to try a case. They will try cases. They’ve been successful and been getting acquittals. You know, we have to take this differently.
Dunn: Can the prosecutor drop criminal charges?
Turner: Absolutely. And we see it all the time. If they don’t have the evidence to meet the elements of the crime, then essentially the case has to be dropped.
Dunn: Let’s talk about Missouri bond pre-trial release and detention. Will I go to jail if I’m charged with a crime?
Brown: Not necessarily. Again, there’s a lot of factors that go into it. First and foremost, the level of crime you’re charged with. Are we looking at a misdemeanor versus a felony? Most misdemeanors, you’re probably not going to be detained on a pre-trial bond, but again, depends on the severity of the case. And then whether or not you’re detained with the bond or released with the bond, depends on a number of factors.
Dunn: Can I get bond in Missouri?
Turner: Absolutely. You can get bond in Missouri. And this just piggybacks off of what Matt says. Essentially it’s going to be up to the judge to determine you know for the protection of the community and to ensure that you are going to appear for the future court appearances. And so as long as you know there’s a determination that no one is at risk of being hurt that you will appear back in court more than likely you will get a bond and again it’s depending on the severity of the charges.
Dunn: Now, how does bond work in Missouri criminal court?
Turner: So, typically how bond works is that the judge will determine, and this is again back to what I was saying, they will determine whether you are a danger to the community and whether you will actually show back up. It’s going to be depending on the nature of the circumstances and the crime. When you talk about a misdemeanor, typically you’ll be released on your own recognizance. If it’s not some violent crime that is being committed. And then when you get up there to those violent crimes or those severe felony charges, the judge is always thinking about the protection of the community. Are you potentially going to go and harm a witness or contact a witness? Can I trust you to actually show back up to the court? And so, it’s all those factors that are going to determine whether you’re going to be able to get bond in Missouri. But most definitely, yes.
Combs: And I think it’s important to point out that each jurisdiction does it differently. So, in the city of St. Louis, they operate on a cashless bail system, meaning you either have a no bond or you’re getting released on your own recognizance, meaning you don’t have to put up any money. People commonly refer to that as a signature bond or O bond, but you’re released on your own recognizance to appear at your next court date. In St. Louis County and other rural jurisdictions, if you’re dealing with a serious felony case, there will be some type of bond. We’ll have a bond reduction hearing, but you will have to post some type of money. Police do their investigation. They take that to the prosecutor’s office. The prosecutor looks at it for what charges they plan to issue. They sign off on the charges. The charges are either issued with a summon to appear in court or with a warrant for your arrest. If they’re issued with a warrant for your arrest, typically, you have to turn yourself in and post bond. If the bond is $100,000 cash only, most people don’t have that laying around. Then we go to court and we argue for $25,000, $50,000, 10% or even an O bond. And then you post that bond and your release, pending the outcome of the case.
Dunn: Can I get bond in Missouri?
Combs: Yes. Yeah, of course. You can get a bond. I mean, there are cases with no bond, but of course, we argue for bond and you put that money up and as long as you make it to all your court dates, you’ll receive that back at the end of the case.
Dunn: And what is pre-trial detention in Missouri?
Brown: Well, pre-trial detention is essentially where you’re being detained post- or pre-trial, meaning either your bond was too high and you couldn’t post the bond. So, you’re still in jail. Or there’s certain conditions attached to your bond to where you’re being monitored while you’re out in the community.
Dunn: Can I be held without bond in Missouri?
Brown: You can be held without bond in Missouri. Again, typically those are reserved for the most serious type cases, homicides, murders, that sort of thing. Severe child molestation type cases, a judge could put a no bond on you. It does happen. We don’t see it happen as often as what you probably see on TV. But it’s also important to note that some bonds, some monetary amounts that are applied to certain cases essentially amount to a no bond for somebody. So for example, if your bond is $250,000 cash only, it might as well be a no bond because you can’t afford it anyway.
Dunn: What factors affect bond decisions?
Turner: Yes. So essentially what the judge is determining is the client a danger to society? Is the client going to show up to the future court appearances and just overall what are their community ties? What is going to be the outcome if this person is held in prison? And you weigh that against the severity of the crime, the alleged victims in the case. And so from there, it kind of just trickles down to are there any other special conditions on a case-by-case basis to determine that bond? But essentially, they’re looking to see what are your community ties? Are you a danger to the community and can I trust you to come back to court?
Dunn: Can I be released on electronic monitoring?
Turner: Yes. The GPS monitor. And typically you will see those GPS electronic monitoring devices being placed on individuals who are repeat offenders or in domestic violence cases. And so you want to ensure and monitor that the client isn’t going within a certain distance or contacting the alleged victim or there isn’t any type of witness tampering in certain cases.
Dunn: What conditions can a judge impose while my case is pending?
Combs: So, a number of things can be imposed while you’re out on bond. The standard conditions are typically no firearms, no drinking, things of that nature. However, we have to get creative because we want our client out and the client wants out. So, in certain situations, let’s say it’s your third offense DWI, they may put what’s called a scram monitor on your ankle that detects if you’ve had a sip of alcohol. As Martell mentioned, in a domestic assault case, they’re likely going to put a GPS monitor on you and put a circle around the alleged victim’s place of employment and their home address and make that an exclusionary zone. So there’s a number of conditions that can be put on you on bond. I’ve seen no driving before. I mean, you name it, a judge can really do it.
Brown: And I think it’s, Chris noted too, it’s important to note that sometimes with a lot of our cases, we have to get creative in what we’re offering to the court in order to ensure our client can be released. Because I always tell my clients, job number one is let’s get you out of jail. Whatever that means, let’s get you out of jail. So I mean, for example, I have one client that part of his condition of bond is he cannot step foot in the state of Missouri unless he’s coming back for court. That was a condition that we offered to the judge. The judge bought it and it ensured my client got released. Now, my client can’t come to Missouri anymore unless we’re going to court. But, that’s just one of the things that we look at. It’s not just a GPS. It’s not just a screen monitor. What else can we do to ensure the judge, number one, the community’s going to be safe? And number two, my client’s going to come back to court.
Dunn: What happens if I violate bond conditions?
Brown: If you violate your bond conditions, oftentimes the prosecutor’s going to file a motion to revoke your bond. Depending on what that violation is, you’re certainly not going to make the judge happy because typically when a judge grants you bond the first time, you’re telling that judge, “I’m not going to be a problem. You’re not going to have any issues with me. You’re okay releasing me back into the community.” When you violate a judge’s order, judges typically don’t like that. So, if the violation is severe enough and it makes the judge mad enough, the judge will likely revoke your bond and send you back to jail pending the outcome of your case and then oftentimes the chances of getting another bond set are pretty slim at that point.
Dunn: Can a judge issue a no contact order in my case?
Combs: Yes. That’s one of the conditions I should have mentioned earlier that you often see is in domestic assault cases they will (issue) no contact. So, we see that even with husband and wife cases where someone’s got to move out of the house pending the case. So, what we try to do is once we get our client out with the no contact order is once some time has gone by and there haven’t been any issues on bond, we’ll go back to court for a bond modification hearing and get the bond modified to no unlawful contact so that they can’t have contact with each other.
Dunn: Well, let’s talk about Missouri criminal charges and common cases. What’s the difference between a misdemeanor and a felony in Missouri?
Turner: So, essentially, it’s dealing with the class and the time that would be spent in jail. So, misdemeanor, typically you’re going to be dealing with those charges, traffic violations, any of those, I don’t want to say non-serious, but less serious offenses, that would land you in jail for up to 364 days. Once you hit that 365 day mark, which is a year, that’s your Class E felony up to a Class A felony. Those are the ones that can land you in jail or prison for a more extensive amount of time. So, it’s really dealing with the class and the severity of the case and how they’re going to classify it. Is it a misdemeanor or is it a felony?
Dunn: What are the felony classes in Missouri?
Turner: So, in Missouri, the lower level is going to be a Class E felony. And that ranges all the way up to a Class A felony. And so, it’s going to be dealing with the severity of the crimes and how the prosecution would write the crime or charge the client. And so, usually with a Class E felony, you’re looking at the minimum one year in prison. You get up to those higher felony crimes dealing with homicide, first degree assault, you’re looking at 15, 20 years to life in prison.
Dunn: What are the most common criminal charges in Missouri?
Brown: Probably the most common that we see on the misdemeanor level, I think, is going to be your driving while intoxicated charges, simple possession charges, drug charges. We get a lot of minor assault cases, domestic assault cases. And then when you get into the felony range, again, probably the most common you’re looking at are assault type charges. A lot of drug possession type charge cases.
Dunn: What is domestic assault in Missouri?
Brown: Domestic assault is when you harm somebody or put somebody in fear of physical harm that you have some kind of personal relationship with. It could be a current or former spouse, boyfriend, girlfriend, a current or former family member. So it’s essentially an assault case with the added exception that you have some kind of special relationship with that person.
Dunn: What is assault in Missouri?
Combs: Misdemeanor assault, the way the statute reads, you don’t even have to touch someone. It is putting someone in the immediate fear or apprehension of physical harm. Now, oftentimes on a misdemeanor charge of assault, you’re going to see a push or a shove or something of that nature. When you get up to felony level assaults, it depends on the severity of the injury. So like an e-felony assault, you might be talking black eye or extensive bruising or something of that nature. But to get up to your higher level, like in Missouri, we don’t have attempted murder statute. We have first-degree assault. So that if you shoot someone, that’s first-degree assault. And they live. Obviously, it would be homicide, of course, if you shot them and they passed away.
Dunn: What are Missouri weapons charges?
Brown:
There’s a whole list of weapons charges. Typically they’re all going to start out as some kind of unlawful use of a weapon. And that term in itself can be very misleading. If I talk to somebody that says, “Yeah, you’re charged with unlawful use of a weapon.” Why? They instantly say, “Why? I didn’t shoot anybody. I didn’t pull the trigger.” So it’s a very misleading term, but you can be charged with unlawful use of a weapon just by exhibiting a firearm. You can be charged with unlawful use of a weapon because you got arrested with a gun, but you also have drugs in your car. So there’s a wide variety of weapons charges in Missouri that doesn’t necessarily mean you discharged a firearm.
Combs: So there’s one statute, as Matt said, and it’s unlawful use of a weapon. We refer to it as UW. And then underneath that statute, you have like 13 different subsections. You’ve got felony and possession of a firearm, you’ve got exhibiting, you’ve got discharging a firearm while intoxicated, on and on and on. So, there’s many weapons violations.
Dunn: What are the most common drug charges in Missouri?
Combs: After the legalization of marijuana, I would say the most common are probably like fentanyl and meth. You see a lot of that. Prior to that it was a lot of marijuana possession. But we don’t see that hardly at all anymore.
Dunn: Which one is more prevalent, use or possession?
Combs: Possession typically means that you are an end user because possession means you had essentially a lower amount on you and that you were an end user. That’s definitely more prevalent than your possession with intent to distribute or trafficking or things of that nature.
Dunn: What is stealing or theft in Missouri?
Brown: Stealing or theft in Missouri is essentially taking something from somebody that doesn’t belong to you and you didn’t have their permission to do so.
Combs: The monetary threshold on theft used to be $500, it’s now $750. So, stealing over $750 is a felony, class E, the lowest level. And then stealing under $750 is a misdemeanor.
Dunn: What is burglary in Missouri?
Turner: Burglary is the unlawful entry into someone’s dwelling or home with the intent to commit a crime. Necessarily you do not have to commit the crime, but it’s having the intent, the criminal intent to commit that crime.
Dunn: What is robbery in Missouri?
Combs: Robbery has a violent component to it. So robbery is the forcible taking of someone else’s property. So while burglary is breaking into someone’s home when no one’s there with the intent to commit a felony, stealing, things of that nature. Robbery you can think of it as like your strong armed robbery. You know, like ripping someone’s purse off of them. But there has to be a violence component typically to robbery.
Turner: So it’s essentially stealing with the violence.
Dunn: What is property damage in Missouri?
Brown: Property damage again is when you damage or deface property that does not belong to you. There is again, as Chris alluded to with stealing charges, there’s a monetary value set to that. When you hit a certain threshold in the value of property that you’ve damaged, it becomes a felony. It’s also important to note that you cannot be charged with property damage if you destroy your own personal property. That’s a common misconception, but you can destroy and damage your own stuff all you want. You just can’t do it to somebody else’s.
Combs: And the financial threshold on that is $1,000. So, a crime that we see a lot of is leaving the scene of an accident, causing property damage in excess of $1,000. That’s a Class E felony. So we see that a lot.
Dunn: What is disorderly conduct in Missouri?
Combs: Disorderly conduct is actually a very minor, low-level crime. So, when we’re dealing with an assault charge, if we can get that amended to disorderly conduct, that’s a grand slam result. Typically, disorderly conduct is an ordinance violation that you would see in one of these municipal courts, not necessarily in circuit court or associate circuit court, which is the state level. So, it’s typically a local offense in a municipality. You know, Creve Coeur, Chesterfield, Jennings, St. Charles, St. Peters, these smaller courts, is where you would see disorderly conduct. But that could be anything really. You know, mouthing off or just causing a scene.
Dunn: How do criminal defense lawyers fight the criminal charges?
Turner: Very case specific. One thing that we tell our clients all the time is your case is very unique. My case is not the same as your case. Facts are different, circumstances are different. So, when you’re building a defense, it’s very important to sit down with your client, make sure that you understand the facts of the case, make sure you understand what’s going on, and you weigh that against the evidence that the prosecutor has. And then at that point, you kind of build your defense. And what I’ve seen is that there’s no one defense, take-all type strategy because what works on your case may not work on his case. So, sitting down with your client, having that open line of communication with your client and having them be an integral part of the entire process that helps you build the most sound defense.
Dunn: What is a motion to suppress evidence?
Combs: So, a motion to suppress evidence is when we think or we believe that law enforcement lacked probable cause or the search and seizure of the alleged illegal substance or whatnot, was not properly conducted. So what we would do is we would draft a motion to suppress evidence. We would file it and then argue it in front of a judge. You see motion to suppress evidence most commonly in drug cases.
Dunn: Can evidence be thrown out because of an illegal search?
Turner: It can. And this goes to what Chris was saying. So, when you’re doing the motion to suppress evidence, people would think that it’s just dealing with the object of the evidence, but it also can be the statements as well. And so if law enforcement illegally obtained statements maybe because they have not been read their Miranda rights or there was some coercion, again or they illegally obtained the evidence then that’s when it would be suppressed. We would write up the motion and then we would go argue it before the court. And so any of that evidence that was illegally obtained then it would be suppressed or thrown out. Although it could have been evidence that could be used, but because law enforcement illegally obtained it, it would be thrown out.
Combs: So that’s one that I should have mentioned Martell picked up on was, yes, motion to suppress statements as well as evidence.
Dunn: Can statements be suppressed based on Miranda violations?
Brown: Yes, absolutely. And again, I think Martell hit on this a little bit, but if there’s a violation of your constitutional rights, we would certainly look into that, hammer out a motion, get that filed, and go argue that to the court. We do everything we can in our power to protect your constitutional rights. If we have found a violation of that and the judge agrees, then absolutely your statements will be thrown out and they cannot be used against you in any of the proceedings going forward.
Dunn: Can body camera footage help my defense?
Brown: Absolutely it can. Because again a lot of times what may end up in a police report is not necessarily factually accurate. And I say that not because I’m trying to say police officers lie. What I’m trying to say is when things are going on, somebody’s making an arrest or they’re doing an investigation, it could be a day or two or a week before that officer actually gets to sit down and put on paper what they remember doing or seeing or saying. So a body cam or dash cam footage is a real life shot of what actually went on. And we’ve had a lot of driving while intoxicated cases, for example, we read a police report and it says, the client had a slurred voice and they were swaying around and could hardly stand up and talk. And then we’d review a dash cam video or body cam video and that’s not what all happened. So, it’s a very beneficial investigative tool for us to just for nothing else other than to cooperate with what they’re saying on paper is true and if it’s not, we can take that to court and use that.
Turner: And so, like piggybacking off of what Matt is saying, you had previously asked me about the defenses that we use. And so when I say the intent to commit the crime and then the self-defense in addition using that body-worn camera and that being evidence that can also be then used because if we suppress that or if we can use that to (say), “Hey they didn’t meet the elements of the crime” and so boom now it’s thrown out.
Dunn: –as a defense strategy.
Turner: Absolutely. And so we have one, we have the body-worn camera, we have the report and then now we’re up here and we’re questioning the officer on the stand and then it all just comes crumbling down.
Dunn: Can witness statements be challenged in court?
Combs: Yes, definitely. And that is typically done in two forms. Either in Missouri, we were fortunate to be able to take a pre-trial deposition. So, what that is is a sworn statement of the witness or the alleged victim. You’re sitting in a room, it’s the defense attorney, the prosecutor, and a court reporter. And their court reporter is going to produce a sworn transcript, but they’re under oath. And you can ask them anything, anything you want. The other way that witness testimony is challenged is via cross-examination at either a preliminary hearing or at a jury trial.
Dunn: Can an alleged victim drop criminal charges?
Brown: No. No victims or witnesses can drop criminal charges. And again, that’s another common misconception. The state of Missouri through the prosecuting attorney’s office is the entity that files charges. They’re the only ones that have the ability to file a charge or then ultimately dismiss the charge. Now, as a victim in a crime, you certainly have the right to have to provide input to the prosecutor on whether or not you want to proceed in the prosecution, whether or not you’re going to assist in that prosecution. Most prosecutors will have you sign what’s called an affidavit of non-prosecution. Meaning, if you’re the victim of the crime and you don’t want to help out, you don’t want to proceed, you can ultimately sign an affidavit that says that you’re not going to do that. But ultimately that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re going to drop the charges, but it certainly weakens their case.
Dunn: What happens if the accuser changes or cancels their story?
Turner: I mean, I believe that that can be used as an evidentiary tool or a defense mechanism to bring about the charges being dismissed. Half of the time it works, half of the time it doesn’t. But I think that definitely is something that we see quite often where we’re using it as a defense mechanism to receive the most favorable outcome for our clients.
Dunn: Let’s talk about Missouri plea deals, probation, and sentencing. Should I accept a plea agreement?
Combs: Well, that’s something we touched on earlier, and that’s something that Combs Waterkotte prides itself on. Our two big things that we pride ourselves on is, one, communication because that is so important. That you have direct access to your lawyer throughout your case. And second is that we’re results driven. And that sounds kind of cheesy, but if you know the industry and you know that there are a lot of lawyers out there that just take the first plea offer and take it to their client, being results driven means that we are working constantly by working up the file to get a more favorable plea offer. Now whether or not you should take it, that’s very, you know, case by case and fact specific. But it is our job to get the best possible plea offer, take it to our client, and then give our professional opinion on the plea or what it would look like at a jury trial.
Dunn: But how do plea bargains work in Missouri?
Brown: Well, oftentimes, number one, you have to request it. And we do that as soon as we enter on a case. We always request some kind of plea offer from the state. The state is not obligated, and when I say the state I mean the prosecuting attorney’s office. They’re not obligated to give you any kind of plea offer. Most of the time they do because obviously they want to dispose of cases. So normally we’ll get some kind of initial offer from the state. It could be for a fine, it could be for probation, it could be for jail time, it could be for prison time. And then based upon what that initial offer is, that’s kind of when we go to work. We start additional negotiations with the state to see if we can better that offer. We already at this point have already typically had our clients working on what we call some type of mitigation whether that is taking a defensive driving class, doing a victim impact panel class, starting therapy, starting community service. So we always have our clients do a lot of things on the front end in order to help the negotiations on the back end.
Dunn: What’s a negotiated plea agreement?
Turner: So, a negotiated plea agreement is going to be between the defense attorney and the prosecution. And so, we’re looking at the evidence that is being used against our client. We’re also thinking about, what is our client’s criminal history? What is the likelihood that this offense would be repeated? The severity of the charges. And so that discussion is being happening between the defense attorney and the prosecution. And once we can reach a favorable outcome of what we believe, based on the surrounding circumstances, of course, we will then take that back to our client and we will convey all of that. And essentially, again, it is the client’s decision whether they want to accept that agreement or not.
Dunn: What is an open plea?
Turner: So, an open plea is where there isn’t an agreement that is being reached between the state or the prosecution and the defense. And so, the defendant is pretty much opting out of accepting any offer that could have been presented to them. And instead, what we’re going to do is we’re going to go before the court and we’re going to essentially argue on our client’s behalf and saying, “Your honor, we believe that our defendant should be punished in this way or the defendant shouldn’t be punished at all.” So then it’s going to come from the bench. The bench is going to determine the outcome of the entire case at that point.
Combs: So the judge is making the sentencing decision.
Turner: That’s right.
Dunn: Wow. That’s like ultimate.
Turner: It can get risky.
Combs: Yes, it’s only utilized in very specific situations.
Dunn: Can charges be reduced to a lesser offense?
Brown: Absolutely. And there’s a number of reasons how that can happen. As you’re going along through the progression of the case, if the prosecutor realizes that, ‘Hey, maybe we can’t meet the requirements for this felony, but there are requirements there for a misdemeanor,’ they can be reduced that way. Or a lot of times what we do through our negotiations is talk to the prosecutor and say, “Hey reduce this felony charge down to a misdemeanor.” Our client would be satisfied with that. So throughout plea negotiations charges can be reduced.
Dunn:
What is probation in Missouri?
Combs: Probation can mean a number of things. So, on a misdemeanor charge, you’re typically looking at bench probation, which means you’re not supervised. It’s just: don’t get arrested, don’t have law enforcement contact for a certain amount of time. It’s typically two years on a misdemeanor. On a felony, you’re looking at anywhere between three and five years of probation. But probation is a number of terms that you have to abide by that if you successfully complete, then the case is closed either without a conviction on your record or without having to serve any type of confinement, jail or prison time.
Dunn: What is suspended imposition of sentence or SIS?
Combs: Great question. There is an SIS and an SES. So an SIS stands for suspended imposition of sentence. And what that means is that in exchange for our client’s guilty plea, the court will not impose any sentence on our client. And in lieu of imposing a sentence, place him on a period of probation. Now because they’re not imposing a sentence, they cannot find you. And if you successfully complete the probation under an SIS, then there’s no conviction on your record. Now, an SES stands for suspended execution of sentence, which means that the judge has sentenced you to some term of imprisonment, but suspending executing that sentence. So, then you’re on probation with some type of prison time hanging over your head. And if you successfully complete the probation, obviously you don’t see the inside of a jail or prison cell. But that is the difference between an SIS and an SES. You also take the conviction under an SES because you are being sentenced to a term of imprisonment. It’s just not being executed.
Dunn: Can I avoid jail time in Missouri?
Brown: Hopefully, if you hire Combs Waterkotte, you do. One thing I always tell my clients is I don’t let my clients go to jail because it’s bad for business. So we do everything in our power to absolutely make sure you avoid jail time. At the end of the day it’s based upon a number of factors but there are a number of other punishments or things available to our clients and to defendants that don’t necessarily include having to go to jail or go to prison.
Dunn: What sentencing enhancements can increase penalties?
Turner: Absolutely. It could, one, depend on the severity of the charges, dealing with from Class E to Class A felony. It can also depend on was there a weapon involved? Is the person a prior and persistent offender? So there, the judge is definitely weighing their criminal history, the danger of the crime that was being committed essentially that could enhance those, also if they have prior convictions as well. That definitely plays a huge role in when the judge is sentencing someone for punishment.
Dunn: Well, let’s talk about expungement and criminal records in Missouri. Will an arrest show up on a background check in Missouri?
Combs: So, it’s really important to note that everyone has four records. You have a driving record, you have an arrest record, you have a criminal record, and then you have DFS, CPS, Department of Family Services, Child Protective Services record. So to answer your question, yes, an arrest will typically show up on a background check. So the purpose of an expungement is to get that arrest record expunged. So what we do is, and we get a lot of these cases, of course. What we do is we file a petition, which is a lawsuit, for an expungement of arrest records. The attorney general’s office for the state of Missouri will enter as the opposing party. Then as long as it meets the statutory requirements, then you know sometimes it requires a hearing, sometimes it does not. And then the judge, a circuit court judge will sign off on an expungement of arrest records. And then the key is to make sure that every single department that had a copy of that record gets served with the expungement notice. So, you’ve got to do the local police department, Missouri State Highway Patrol, the court. There’s a lot of places you’ve got to serve. And you can’t miss because you only get one bite at the apple on that.
Dunn: Wow. Can a criminal record be expunged in Missouri?
Brown: Yes, absolutely. It kind of follows the same process of expunging your arrest record, but if you’re statutorily eligible based upon the crime that you’ve been convicted of then you would have to petition the court in order to get that conviction expunged. But, absolutely it is possible.
Dunn: What crimes qualify for expungement in Missouri?
Combs: So, there is a long long list. And of course I can’t rattle them all off the top of my head, but I can tell you that if a case is dismissed, then any arrest record can be expunged. But off the top of my head, I can tell you that domestic assault charges cannot be expunged. A general rule of thumb is most violent crimes cannot be expunged. Your robberies, things like that. Certainly sex crimes cannot be expunged as a general rule of thumb. But there are a number of charges that can be expunged. You know DWIs can be expunged but only one and it has to be 10 years after the arrest.
Dunn: Oh wow.
Combs: Or, I’m sorry not the arrest, the conclusion of the case. So that means after if you took probation after the probationary period.
Dunn: Wow.
Combs: So, there are a number of things that can be expunged. Missouri has lightened up on their expungement laws. There used to only be one statute in which you could expunge a record. Now there’s three. So, you’ve got three different avenues to expunge a record. So again it is lightened up so that you know people can benefit from getting things expunged for employment, housing and everything really.
Dunn: Can dismissed charges be expunged?
Combs: Yes, a dismissal on any charge. So even though domestic assault is not an expungeable offense if it’s dismissed then it can be expunged.
Dunn: So people don’t realize that even if you were charged and it was dismissed, it still stays on your record?
Combs: Well again, that goes back to everyone having four records, right? Driving record, criminal record, arrest record, CPS, DFS. So yes, the second that you are booked, fingerprinted, and arrested, there’s nothing any lawyer can do, no matter how much money you pay, to get that off your record, until either a dismissal or the conclusion of probation. Then there’s a waiting time. It’s, I believe, one year on a misdemeanor and three on a felony, and then you can file for an expungement of that arrest record. So, our job is to keep your criminal record clean. Now, we can go back and expunge your arrest record, but that’s down the line.
Dunn: How long does a conviction stay on my record in Missouri?
Turner: I believe a conviction stays on your record for approximately 5 years before it … if you’re asking about it being expunged? Five years.
Combs: But, a felony conviction never goes away unless expunged. So, if you’re convicted of a felony, that’s for life. Unless it’s expungeable. I’ll let Matt expound on this because he handles a lot of expungements in our office.
Dunn: I’ll ask. Can I expunge a felony in Missouri?
Brown: Yes, absolutely you can. And again, as we alluded to earlier, there’s a laundry list of felonies that can be expunged. So, as long as you’re statutorily eligible based upon the crime of which you’ve been convicted, you can absolutely get it expunged. It’s important to note though that a felony is always going to stay on your record unless you take the steps to get it expunged. With the exception of a few years ago when they passed the new marijuana laws there were some specific marijuana convictions that were automatically expunged from your record but I am not aware of anything else that automatically gets expunged from your record. So, if you think ‘I was convicted of a felony, I did my time, and then in two years or three years it’s automatically going to disappear.’ That’s not the case at all. There are avenues in which to get that done, but you have to take the steps to do that.
Dunn: What would be the steps to do that?
Brown: First and foremost, I would always advise you to hire an attorney on doing that. As Chris spoke earlier, when you file for an expungement, there are things that you have to do. You have to file a petition with the court. You have to make sure certain entities are served and brought in as parties to the court, parties to that specific case. And you get one bite at the apple because if you screw that up and it gets denied, then you have to wait a certain time period before you can then go back in front of the court and try it again. So, first and foremost, I would always recommend hiring an attorney that’s experienced in handling expungements. Because there are very specific steps that have to be taken. Otherwise, the judge has to deny you and if you get denied then you have to wait a period of time before you can even go back and reapply.
Combs: Or let’s say that you have a successful expungement hearing and the judge does give you an order for an expungement of arrest records and you don’t serve all the proper places. It’s all for naught, right? So you send it to Missouri State Highway Patrol, Creve Coeur, Hazelwood, whatever police department, St. Louis County, things like that. You miss one place, it’s still going to pop up. So, you really need a lawyer who’s experienced at doing that and is going to do it. It needs to be very detailed and gone over with a fine tooth comb.
Dunn: Can a misdemeanor be expunged?
Turner: A misdemeanor can be expunged, but again, I believe that it’s going to be determined by if it was violent or how the statutory code would be written up as to if that is an expungeable charge that can be erased from your record. But I mean, generally speaking, yes.
Dunn: The best process to understand that would be to contact an attorney.
Combs: You can’t go at an expungement alone. You just can’t. People try, but again, we’ve used this, this will be the third time we use this phrase, but you only get one bite at the apple. So, you try to muddle through an expungement yourself and you miss one, one check box on the petition or you do one thing improper, there went your chance.
Dunn: How long does a Missouri expungement take?
Combs: I would say, and Matt might have a better answer, but from the moment we’re hired, if you are statutorily eligible, I’d say 3 to 6 months. Does that sound about right?
Brown: Yes, I would say so. Typically, what I found, if you hire me on an expungement, it typically will take me probably about a week to get the petition drafted, get all the information I need, get that filed with the court, and then make sure that all parties that need to be joined to the case have been served. Once we file the petition in court, then there’s what we call a 30-day dead period where we can’t do anything because now that we’ve served all the other parties, the other parties have 30 days to file a response. So already now you’re 30 days in and then after that, as I alluded to before, now you’re at the mercy of whatever the judge’s availability is and whatever the court’s docket is. So, on average, I tell my clients that hire me at best, we’re probably looking at about 90 days before we can get stuff done–start to finish. But, I would say 90 to 120 days is probably a good rule of thumb.
Dunn: How much does a Missouri criminal defense attorney cost?
Combs: Sure. So, you’re going to hear a wide variety of prices when calling private defense attorneys. Combs Waterkotte is not a budget law firm, but we’re not the most expensive in town. Now, obviously, the reason we’re not a budget law firm is because of our track record of success. And again, we have a whole team. When your evidence comes in, it’s going to be reviewed by a law clerk, a senior litigation paralegal, former law enforcement, an associate attorney, and eventually will land on a partner’s desk. So, regarding costs, let’s just take a DWI for example. You could hear anywhere from $2,500 for a first offense DWI all the way up to 15 grand depending on who you call. So, there’s going to be a wide variety in price. But again, you have to remember, is this the attorney that’s just going to take the first plea deal from the prosecutor and then kind of ram it down your throat or say, “This is the best I can do” or so you’re hiring that $2,000 lawyer on a first offense DWI. I actually had someone call me yesterday and he said it’s a third offense DWI and he said this guy said he’ll do it for three grand. Is that a red flag? And I said yes that is 100% a red flag. I do not know how you can effectively represent someone for three grand on a third offense DWI. So it’s like any other industry. You get what you pay for. But again, I would do your research and if I’m looking for a plumber, I’m not scouring the internet for the cheapest plumber out there, right? I’m not necessarily going to go with the most expensive either, but I’m going to do my research and I’m probably going to go with someone who’s in the middle to the middle to higher end, based upon my research and things of that nature. So, again, wide variety, but you get what you pay for. And the other thing about that client I was just telling you about, he had hired a lawyer to handle his two prior DWIs for two for $2,500. And he’s like, I can’t get this guy on the phone. And I said, well, for $2,500 for two DWIs, you’re not going to be able to get this guy on the phone, you know? And I’m not saying that’s right, but again, I don’t know how you effectively represent someone for $2,500 on two DWIs. Last thing I’ll say, and I don’t want to be too long-winded, but I think this is a great story. So, there is a very prominent DWI attorney in town, and he charges huge rates, right? And he said people ask me, you know, there’s a Missouri ethics rule about an excess charging an excessive amount for a case. And he said, with my track record and what I’ve done, I don’t see it as an excessive amount. He goes, more so what I think the problem is in the state of Missouri is lawyers who take things for way too cheap. Because how do you effectively represent someone, let’s say, on a homicide charge for 10 grand? I mean, you just can’t do it.
Dunn: Do criminal defense lawyers offer payment plans?
Combs: Yes. I would say most do. We offer payment plans. Now, we don’t want to be in the collections business on top of the criminal defense business. However, we recognize that once fees start getting up in the $5,000 or more range, then a lot of people don’t just have that on hand. So, we will work with people on payment plans. We don’t dictate the payment plan because I could say, well, put two grand down and pay me two grand a month. Well, if they can’t do it, they can’t do it. So, we try to work with people, see what’s feasible, and try to make it work. But, yes, payment plans are something that we offer.
Dunn: How much does a felony defense lawyer cost?
Brown:
Dunn: How much does a misdemeanor defense attorney cost?
Combs: So, obviously, it’s going to be cheaper for a misdemeanor than a felony. But it depends on, again, what type of charge you’re looking at. If you’re looking at a misdemeanor domestic assault, you’re going to be in the thousands. DWIs are inherently complex cases. You’ve got the license side, which is a civil side, and then you’ve got the criminal side, which is your charge of DWI and speeding or what have you. So again, thousands of dollars for DWI, domestic assaults, but you get down to some of the lower level stuff it can be cheaper, $1,500, things like that. So, it ranges again and, like Matt said, and I think that’s really important, too–it bears repeating that the way we price our cases is how much is it going to take to get you the best result. We don’t just wing numbers, and we’ve been doing this long enough. We have over 60 years of combined experience in criminal defense at Combs Waterkotte. So we typically know once we’ve had the free consultation based upon criminal history, the jurisdiction, the charge, things like that, this is what it’s going to take to get you the best result and how much work we’re gonna have to put in to get there.
Dunn: Is hiring a private attorney worth it over a public defender?
Combs: I’m going to say 100% yes. And I say that for a multitude of reasons. I say that, one, because I alluded to it earlier. It’s a typical rule of thumb in the public defender’s office that you only speak to your client because they have such a large case load that if they were talking to mom, dad, boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, they wouldn’t have any time to do any work. Whereas, a private defense lawyer is going to keep the family in the loop if that’s what the client wants. Also when you’re hiring a private defense team, particularly with Combs Waterkotte, you get a whole team behind you. I mean, we’ve got former prosecutors, law enforcement, etc. So, I’m going to say that 100% of the time, it is worth hiring a private defense lawyer. Lastly, I’ll just say that when you’re hiring a private defense lawyer, you get a lawyer of your choosing, right? So, you get to do your research. You get to talk to that lawyer. You get to ask them questions. Public defender, you’re just getting assigned an attorney. There could be a personality conflict. There could be, you know, there could just be so many things. So, always hire a private lawyer if you can afford it.
Dunn: What factors affect the cost of a criminal defense lawyer?
Brown: Well, I think from our end, what affects our prices is a number of things. Again, number one, we have enough experience with any case that’s going to come through our door to be able to effectively say, “Okay, we’ve handled that before. We know what it’s going to take. We know the time and effort that we’re going to put in.” So, that largely plays into our pricing structure. But other things that we have to consider are the jurisdiction. Where are we going every day? Am I walking two blocks out of my office to go to court or am I driving four hours away? Who’s the prosecutor handling the case? What type of case is it? Some DWIs in some jurisdictions are a lot easier to handle because the prosecutor makes it a little bit easier as opposed to some cases in other jurisdictions where you might as well have committed a homicide because you get a DWI in certain places. It’s like you killed somebody. It’s very difficult. So, our pricing structure is based upon a number of things. It’s not just, ‘Well, you got charged with this, we’re charging you this amount of money.’ There’s a lot of thought that has gone behind it and a process that we put into when we’re making a determination on what we’re going to charge.
Combs: And criminal history and other things play a factor.
Dunn: How quickly should I hire an attorney after being arrested?
Turner: Immediately. I mean…just immediately you should consult with an attorney because from that point on that’s the building of the case and so you don’t want to make statements afterwards that can be incriminating against you and so you want to consult with the attorney and figure out what are next steps and what I should and should not be doing that could potentially effectuate one the outcome of the case or your freedom.
Combs: If you hire a lawyer right out of the gate, your chances of a successful outcome are exponentially higher. If we get involved immediately, whereas if we get involved down the road, and like Martell alluded to, you’ve made some statements, you’ve done this, you know, it makes it more difficult.
Dunn: Let’s talk about professional licensing, immigration, and life impact. Well, first off, Matt, you have experience in immigration cases.
Brown: Yes.
Dunn: Which can add a lot to this content. Can criminal charges affect my immigration status?
Brown: Absolutely, 100%. And oftentimes they do. Especially where our political landscape is now the last couple of years, it almost has more of an effect on it than what we used to see in the past. And not just an actual charge or an actual conviction, but just mere contact with a police officer could have severe effects on your immigration status. So, if you are an individual that has an immigration status, whether you’re here on a work visa, student visa, or something like that, it is very important and very imperative that you contact an attorney right away at the earliest stages of the process because not only are you dealing with your criminal case now, but now you’re also dealing with an immigration case and, as you alluded to Scott, the experience I’ve gotten is a lot of times that immigration case is going to take precedence over the criminal case and then when that happens what you’re trying to do from the criminal side just gets put on hold. So there are numerous things that can affect your immigration status when you’re going through the criminal justice system.
Dunn: Can a criminal conviction lead to deportation? And I believe you have some personal experience with clients in situations like this.
Brown: 100%. But again, you’re asking about a criminal conviction. It’s not that they’re going to wait around to see if you get convicted. It’s if you’ve gotten arrested, if you’ve been charged with a crime. The way things have been going lately is that they don’t even wait and see how your case in state court plays out. Meaning, okay, well, if you get convicted, then we’ll deport you, but if you’re not guilty, then we’ll let you stick around. That’s just not the case anymore. So, it’s not just wait around to see if you’re going to get convicted or not. If you’ve been charged, if you’ve been arrested, almost immediately that process is going to start.
Combs: So what oftentimes happens is if you have some type of immigration status that is non-U.S. citizen and you get arrested and you’re taken into custody, let’s say we work out of bond, you go to try to post bond, there’s an ICE detainer put on you, so you can’t get out. And obviously because of the supremacy clause of the U.S. Constitution, federal law trumps state. So ICE is of course a federal agency. So they come in and put a detainer on you. State court isn’t really all that relevant so you can go right into removal proceedings and we’ve had clients that have offered to self-port and they’ll say no. So, it’s very complex and complicated when you intertwine immigration issues with a criminal defense case. And we have a number of immigration lawyers that we work with. And oftentimes we can save our clients money because we’ve worked with them enough that they’ll give us a fair amount of their take on what they think’s going to happen without having to fully engage hiring an immigration lawyer. Sometimes you have to have a criminal defense and immigration lawyer. There’s no way around it.
Dunn: Can a plea agreement trigger immigration consequences?
Combs: Absolutely. Now, typically what you see as crimes of moral turpitude are what really can affect immigration status. So, defense lawyers have to be and we’re well-versed in it. There’s a lot of defense lawyers who are not, which is sad to say, but leaving the scene of an accident, that’s a crime of moral turpitude. Stealing, theft, petty larceny, all crimes of moral turpitude. They’re starting to look at DWIs as crimes of moral turpitude because you’re allegedly putting other people’s lives at risk. So, crimes of moral turpitude, you’ve got to be very careful about what type of plea deal you would accept because it could trigger immigration consequences.
Brown: And just to piggyback on that, too. One thing you have to be aware of is that if you’re a person that doesn’t have any consequences to your immigration status, you can accept a plea offer that somebody with immigration issues cannot. So what may be a great deal for you because you’re a U.S. citizen is not necessarily a great deal for somebody that’s going to have to deal with immigration issues. So it’s very important that you keep that in mind when you’re representing somebody that may turn out to have immigration issues.
Combs: Absolutely.
Dunn: Can criminal charges affect my gun rights?
Turner: Absolutely. If you are convicted of a crime or serious felony crime that you were using a gun, yes, 100% it can affect you and it could bring about the subsequent charge, which is the felony and possession of a weapon. And so, 100% when you are committing a crime and it is involving a weapon, what they consider a dangerous weapon, it definitely can affect those gun rights long term.
Combs: And it doesn’t even have to be a crime that’s violent or involves a weapon. I mean, if you’re convicted of any felony, let’s say that you are convicted of embezzlement or stealing over $750, which is a felony, and you get convicted of that, you are now a convicted felon. And under the unlawful use of a weapon statute, which we talked about earlier, there is a subsection “felon in possession of a firearm.” So, it doesn’t even necessarily mean the underlying crime doesn’t even have to be violent or a firearm be involved. If you’re a convicted felon, you cannot possess a firearm.
Dunn: Can criminal charges affect my professional licenses?
Brown: Yes, absolutely. 100%. And, unfortunately, we deal with that as well. I’ve dealt with numerous licensing issues for doctors, for nurses, therapists, teachers. And that ranges from misdemeanors to felonies because each licensing agency is going to have their own kind of rules and standards that they go by. Each different place of employment is going to have their own kind of rules and standards that they have pressed upon their employees. So, absolutely. 100%. And it doesn’t have to be a major felony. It doesn’t have to be a necessarily serious type crime. Anything from a high-speed traffic ticket or DWI could certainly trigger proceedings that could have an adverse effect on your professional license.
Turner: And piggybacking off of what Matt said, it definitely has to do with the profession that you’re in. And typically, they are going to assess that by the level of contact that you have with the public, to determine the level of the background check that they would order or the business or entity would order. And so sometimes, just dealing at the local state level they’ll order it only for the conviction. Some may order it for an arrest as well, or the different records that Chris had talked about earlier. So, it really is dealing with the profession, the amount of contact, and they’re saying could you potentially be a threat to the people that we’re dealing with in our business or within the profession, and that can definitely determine, ‘Okay, if I have a conviction, I can’t work there.’ But if you have an arrest, if they order a background check only for a conviction, just because you got an arrest that did not lead to a conviction doesn’t just immediately cut you off and say you can’t work within this field.
Dunn: I imagine that would be a complicated question to ask if you were applying for a certification or a licensing.
Turner: It is.
Dunn: Well, how exactly deep do you look for?
Turner: I actually took a phone call yesterday dealing with a gentleman. He was in his 60s and he was relocating down to Florida and he had got an offer and it was within the plumbing industry and he got an offer for a senior management position and this arrest that occurred I believe over 40 years ago. I had to explain to him that it depends on what it is that they’re looking for. Maybe they’re not even looking for the arrest. They’re just trying to see–do you have a conviction or not? You say that happened 40 years ago and it has not hindered or stopped you from continuing your profession. So you know in my assessment or my legal analysis I truly don’t believe that you moving down to Florida and having an arrest 40 years ago would affect you continuing out. He said he had seven more years to go before he would reach retirement. And I told him. I said, “I honestly believe that everything will be well,” and this is a 60-something year old man who was crying to me over the phone because again, you just never know. It’s from profession to profession, how that could affect you dealing from an arrest to a conviction, so on and so forth.
Combs: And two things I’ll say just quickly regarding this topic. One, we have battled every type of professional licensing committee out there. I had a nurse one time who got addicted to pain pills and she was so badly addicted it was sad. She knew she was on camera. She knew she used her own swipe card, but she took some pain medication from a secured cabinet.
Dunn: It’s an illness.
Combs: Yes. However, battling the nursing board, I was able to save her nursing license. Now, she had to jump through a lot of hoops and things like that. One, we have experience battling almost every professional licensing board. Two, and this is critical, I would always disclose the arrest or whatever it is. So, this is kind of fast forward. Let’s say you’re applying for some type of professional license. Always disclose it, because people can potentially forgive one bad mistake, but they don’t like liars. So, if you had a DWI 5 years ago, most people can understand that. If you got one, it was one mistake. But if you omit it and they find it, people don’t like liars. So, you’re better off always disclosing it is the advice I give.
Dunn: Can a criminal conviction affect child custody or parenting time?
Brown: Oh, absolutely it can. Now, it could be twofold. I mean, there could be a condition of your probation that you can’t have contact with the child or something like that. Oftentimes what we’ll see is then it’ll also spill over into your family law case. Where a family law judge will say your child custody or whatnot is going to be restricted based upon this type of conviction. So absolutely, again, it certainly can have an effect on your custody or visitation with your child.
Dunn: Can criminal charges affect housing applications?
Turner: 1,000%. Yes. And again, it depends on where it is that you’re applying to. But yes, they can restrict people who may have had a dangerous felony or who have committed a crime. And there’s no violation there. So, yes, it just depends on where it is that you’re applying to, but 1,000% it can definitely affect the outcome.
Dunn: Can criminal charges affect an employment background check?
Combs: Yes. Yeah, without a doubt. If you’re applying, and it depends on what level of job you’re applying to, if you’re applying at Wendy’s as opposed to Boeing, it’s going to be different types of background checks and things like that. However, yes, it can certainly affect employment. And again, I always tell clients, be honest. People can forgive a mistake. They have a hard time wanting to hire a liar.
Dunn: We covered the basics of Missouri criminal defense today and we’re so thankful that Combs Waterkotte were here to join us. We have Chris Combs, managing partner. We also have Matt Brown who’s a partner, and Martell Turner is associate attorney. New to joining Combs Waterkotte. We are super excited that you guys continue to come back. The information is immeasurable. Those that view, search, need, inquire, this is exactly what they need to better understand their position because being in an alleged criminal defense situation is already so complicated. And it seems like you guys make it…like you welcome them into the family and we’re going to take care of you. Not only you, but your family.
Combs: Sure. Yes. We tell every client once they hire us, this is our problem as much as it is yours.
Dunn: I think it’s great.
Combs: So, thank you for having us. And it’s always a pleasure.
Dunn: Awesome. Well, thanks for joining us at Hexxen Studios. We’ll see you next time.
